Continuing the conversation from part one here:
Her: So guy hit me in the face at a party because I told him he was being rude to my friend
*some
So his fuse is shorter than most
Me: when?
Her: A few months back
Me: how did you tell him?
what tone did you use?
Her: I told him he shouldn’t talk to her that way because he was being degrading
I was actually pretty friendly
It was a fun party, no need for conflict
Me: define pretty friendly
hold your thoughts for a minute
Her: Like I was smiling, light tone (tone I use with my mom)
Me: I am going to ask you questions about this
I want to you be as honest as possible
I am not trying to judge you
or him
Her: I was a good distance away, I wasn’t even holding much eye contact
Me: so how far is a good distance away
?
Her: Hmm about two feet?
Yeah, I was about 2 ft away
Actually, no. About 3
Me: okay
what was your tone
of voice?
Her: I don’t know how to describe tone of voice
Me: loud
quiet
Her: I was slightly tipsy, so bubblier than usual
Me: how loud was bubbly?
Her: I wasn’t yelling or anything, but audible
Me: ok
did you call him any names?
as in
Her: No, I said “Hey mister, I don’t think that’s a really nice way to talk to my friend”
Me: did you say those exact words
Her: Yes
Me: or did you command him to stop talking to your friend in a rude manner?
Her: Then he said “Fuck you, sand nigger” then hit me
No, I was just trying to get him to chill out
Me: did you say anything after “Hey mister, I don’t think that’s a really nice way to talk to my friend”?
Her: Nope
Me: was this the first time you or your friends said something to him to get him to stop being rude?
(Her Name)
Her: Yea, he was like standing over her and being sort of intense. Then she came to me and said he called her a cunt for not wanting to leave with him, so I confronted him
Me: you confronted him?
it sounds like you had confrontational intent
even though you were in a bubbly mood
Her: By confront I mean approached him and said what I told you
Me: ok
now
I think I can break things down for you
1.
For what you’re dying to know, I’m sure
actually
one more thing
why did you confront him, instead of just avoid him the rest of the night?
Her: Because he wouldn’t leave my friend alone and she was getting really annoyed
Me: he wouldn’t leave your space?
or he wouldn’t stop talking in your direction?
Her: No, he followed us around the whole time
Me: oh alright
1. He was not right to punch you in the face for your request
which sounds reasonably put
I imagine he a) doesn’t know how to interact with girls very well (the following you around despite repeated rejections)
and b) does or did not have a male role model
to teach him how to manage him emotions
the reason why I asked you those questions
is because things happen under the hood that you don’t realize
if you call him a name when you ask him to stop doing something
you’re calling him out
and inviting a fight
if you tell him to stop doing something, he thinks. “Who the fuck are you to tell me what to do?”
and now you’re gotta prove you’ve got the authority
if you get in his face or use a loud tone of voice
whether you realize it or not
you are using signals men use, consciously or unconsciously
to let other men know that a fight is a comin’
if you choose to confront him rather than avoid him or switch bars
you are choosing the fight option of the “fight or flight response”
and he recognizes that subconsciously
now
Her: Yeah
Me: if any of what I say doesn’t make that much sense
imagine yourself
if you were a guy
and you did one of the things I mentioned
it makes a whole lot more sense, right?
Her: Yeah it does
Me: what I am really getting across to you
is that
you’re getting treated like a guy
Her: The thing is, I’m a really non-confrontational person
Me: you’re getting treated equally
Her: So I was really surprised
Me: I know you’re a non confrontational person
yes
there’s a combination of factors in this
I can tell you all of them
Her: And my dad makes it clear what can be taken as threatening posture, eye contact, voice etc because he is really aggressive
Me: but the very basic stuff
I can’t tell you all of them
yeah
well there’s more
Her: And I’m very vigilant of that, so I’m always aware when I’m asking for it or when I’m backing down
Me: true
I don’t doubt it
the point I am getting at
is choosing to confront
is aggressive intent
no matter how you go about it
because you are still indirectly saying,”Stop talking to/bothering my friend”
combined with a low fuse and/or a lack of ability to control emotional response or tell what a healthy reponse is
makes this sort of thing happen
do you understand what I am getting at?
Her: Yes
I understand
Me: even when you are doing everything right
there can still be some factor you don’t know about or didn’t plan for
now, going through this conversation
I can think of one other thing that was in play if you want to hear it
Her: Yes please
Me: so
that guy
on a basic level
he was following his biological imperative
and persuing a mate
even if clumsily and unskilled
what you would call creepy
or scary
depending on how he looked
I imagine you would say creepy
am I right?
Her: (Rapey, is the term she used)
Me: hmmm
what did the guy look like?
tatoos?
muscular?
stupid?
smart?
chainz
gansta clothes?
Her: Really big build, about 6’2″, neglecting lower body and fully built with upper body, seemed fairly stupid, probably part of a frat
Me: ahh…………………………….
well
that’s a part of it
my point is
when you confronted him
you are directly getting in the way of him pursing his mate
which on an animal level
encourages him to compete for his mate
and when he is 6’2″
Her: Well I don’t think hitting me is helping him get any
Me: no
it’s not that he thinks hitting you will get him laid
on a very primal level
you are stopping him from pursuing a mate
when men are stopped from pursuing mates
the animal response is to fight
unless the person stopping the man is bigger
you confronted a 6’2″ frat boy
who saw you as little threat
what I am saying
is
you did everything you thought right
but on a simple level
you confronted him
and he dealt with you as he would some other opponent
you told me how you were suprised he hit you right?
you didn’t think he would hit you right?
you acted non threatening and did not act hostile
Her: I didn’t think he would even get mad! I wasn’t being remotely rude
Me: I know
it’s a very primal thing that is hard to understand
Her: It’s fine, I think I got it
Me: even though I am loathe to say it
the correct response would have been to get a bouncer to deal with him
or get him ejected from the club/bar
Her: Yeah
Me: I don’t expect you to agree fully with everything I say
or understand every little detail or nuance
but I’m glad you can talk about it and understand most of it
Question for you
Do you mind if I use this conversation as an example to other female friends of mine
?
Her: Oh go ahead
Me: Thank you
Her: If they can learn as much as I did from it, then I’d be happy to oblige
Me: I won’t use your name, just the points I explain in it
Her: Haha yeah that’s fine
Me: the funny thing is
you do better than most girls
your thought processes are better on this
but even you get flak when you miss the parts people don’t teach you about
like what I try to explain now
Her: Yeah, well like I said, my dad tries to give me basics
Me: yep
one more thing before I go
in our conversation
on facebook
I gave you a warning shot
you don’t always get a warning shot
if the guy has been drinking
if he’s pissed off
if he doesn’t have a role model to explain him to give one
or if the guy looks like a thug/frat boy/low intelligence
Make sense?
Her: Yes sir
Me: Alright
I have an exam
take care
Her: Good luck
And thanks for the advice
Me: You’re welcome
Bye
It appears that as women are being taught to act more masculine and men are taught to act more feminine, girls get surprised when they get treated like guys. It appears to me that their idea of being treated equally is just being treated like a girl and their idea of how to act like a guy is a bastardized version of what they see. Incidents like the female marine getting body slammed to the ground and dying when she starts a fight come to mind.
It’s my hope that more girls realize that not can they not truly be men, but that they don’t really want to be either. A lot of trouble would be averted if they understood better what was going on, or at least understood that they don’t really know how men work, and don’t get into fights because they think they do.
~Wald
Pingback: Conversation with a Female Friend: Part 1 | Scar Tissue
Great explanation. Sad how you have to almost coddle her throughout the conversation to avoid having her react more emotionally.
In the below quote, I believe you meant to say feminine the second time you wrote the word masculine.
“It appears that as women are being taught to act more masculine and men are taught to act more masculine”
You’re correct – I fixed it.
It was annoying how I had to coddle her, but it was interesting how far I got without that spoiling the conversation.
My guess is that she might forget the majority of this conversation in a matter of days.
You are probably correct. These two posts are not so much about what I am able to teach her or what I think she will retain.
What is important is that this girl is supposedly one “who gets it”. Supposedly her Dad has taught her to be non-confrontational so that she does not make certain missteps that most girls are oblivious to.
Like AneroidOcean said, I had to coddle her throughout the entire conversation (or she shut up and listen because I scared her) to guide her to the answer.
I probably won’t really have another conversation like this in the near future, as it would be probably a waste of breath.
This conversation you see is more of an illustration, a barometer on what the average (though this girl is a little different).girl thinks on the matter, i.e they have little to no clue how things work. Most girls I imagine are worse than this one.
I just found this post.
It brings up something that should be discussed more. As much as women claim they’re “silenced” in society and men have more rights, blah blah blah, they actually have more freedom.
No man could act as aggressively as women act most of the time without getting a fist in his face. This is something men learn early on and it keeps us civil.
I especially think this is why women are so unbearable in the workplace. If you’re a guy and you get in a guy’s face at work, you have to live with the subconscious worry that the guy you gave a hard time to could end up beating the crap out of you in the parking lot after work with his friends, or see you at a bar that weekend and do the same.
Women don’t live with this fear and when it comes to work, they can behave however they want. I think this is why many people have come to dread working with women. There are no boundaries when it comes to how they can behave in a public space.
The Violence Against Woman Act, ironically enough, assures their misbehavior by making it an even bigger crime to give them a (sometimes) much-needed slap.
It’s amazing to me how much they are unaware of.
I’m told that pursuing conversations such as these are a waste of time my time. In terms of getting laid and improving myself, it is probably true. But what I learn and see is sometimes unable to be valued until later.
One post that best catches this phenomenon was Delusion Damage’s old post, “Are you asking to be killed?”
Women don’t seem to realize what they ask or say. That is to say, that while women can communicate overtly and covertly by way of speaking indirectly, they seem to be unable to see what they overtly or covertly communicate by actions.
Do you happen to have DelusionDamages articles on your pc? Would love to read them.
I archived his entire blog, saving each article to a word document. Even bought his book. I’ll look through my files/sent emails and see if I can get you all of them.
Wald
That would be fantastic, thanks. Which book, though? Is it still available?
I don’t think the book is available anymore.
I’ll get back to you tomorrow.
Wald
Damn, I wish I had had a father for just this kind of talk. That is immensely helpful. Felt like these feelings should not be there. Damn.
Could you clarify that a bit more?
Wald
It is great to see you put this stuff into words and talk about it openly. I always carried these emotions within myself, but like a dark secret. My usual concern was actually to prove how well I can suppress them and be a nice boy. I was proud of it, such a fool was I.
Oh I see. Thank you.
Someone has to talk about it. Each girl you make realize what could actually be should she get “off the wrong train” is a girl you save from need beauty treatments the rest of her life, and a man you save from jail time.
Wald
Yeah.
I wonder why so little people talk about it, even in the manosphere. It seems that some things just get passed on from father to son and then you forgot where you learned them and it does not seem like something that needs to be said. Or they just have no clue. Look at that lost boy Roosh, wondering about his purpose in life, clinging to evolution and science. All the while this stuff is so basic, so ‘in your face’.
Some people focus on more superficial.
My focus leads me to talk about that which I do.
Wald